Christianity Knowledge Base talk:What is a Christian
This page should serve as the definitive debating area to determine what groups, denominations, persons, or otherwise are defined as a Christian, for the purposes of determining the CPOV. Also, remember Matthew 7:1, "Do not judge others, lest ye be judged...." so everyone, let's try not to judge people, we can say whether or not someone's theology would make them a non-Christian or not without judging them about things. Remember, even the most adament of Satanists could be a Christian who has been taken over by anti-Christ nanoprobes or something. The sides There probably are some. It might be useful to list them before we begin this so we all know where we stand. :The big one is that some conservative Trinitarians do not accept Nontrinitarians as true Christians. In some cases, the inverse is also true. Archola 22:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC) ::Hmm, the problem is the very word "trinity", because its not in the Bible, can be redefined as much as people want, so I suppose a "non-trinitarian" could understand and admit compleatly that Jesus is God, God is God, and the Holy spirit is God without actually calling it a "trinity". Homestarmy 03:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC) Who will we address That's a good question, im glad I asked it of myself. Should we be going at this from an innnocent until proven guilty perspective or guilty until proven innocent? That is to say, if we get into this to the point where we are addressing one particular belief system, are we going to sort of like test their beliefs first to see if their Biblical or how are we going to treat other beliefs? How this will affect CPOV I propose that, as we debate on this page and come up with point on stuff, we can update the CPOV page periodically if we can gain an understanding on certain issues, such as stuff about Jesus being God or not or important things A proposed first issue I think we might as well start with the big things, I (Homestarmy) propose that any and all groups or persons who claim that Jesus is not God or another god besides God will be considered for the purposes of this knowladge base as non-Christians, and their perspectives thereof shall be rendered invalid in all CPOV gaining endeavours. /discuss. :We already have a Jehovah's Witness editor who would disagree with you. Remember what nsandwhich said: we are not anti-Jehovah's Witnesses. :The real issue here is that Homestarmy's definition focuses on correct doctrine (orthodoxy). This could quickly disintegrate into an argument between various Christian denominations. A broader definition of "Christian" is that they believe that Jesus was sent by God, and have some concept of Jesus as Christ. Will this work? Archola 22:47, 26 March 2006 (UTC) ::I propose that we are also not anti-Christian either :/. if the doctrine is correct, then how is this an incorrect assertion? That editor already said that CARM was wrong in his/her opinion, and CARM says that Jehovah's witnesses do not believe Jesus was God, so how do we know what that editor even believes in the first place? Besides, the broader we go, the more we get into people who certainly are not Christians, Islam believes Jesus was sent by God, and also believe him to be the "Messiah" (They have a different definition), I think the same goes for Bah'ai, Gnosticism is also covered by that, the list goes on and on, and is precisely why I feel my proposel is quite necessary to the definition of Christianity. Homestarmy 03:02, 27 March 2006 (UTC) :::Well, Muslims and Bahai-ists don't even call themselves Christians. Modern Gnostics don't, either, although the term is used of historical Gnostics. I think everyone who identifies as Christian today at least accepts the Gospels, the epistles of Paul, and the works of John (Gospel of John, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John, and Revelations). This is also known as Pauline Christianity. I think all Christians these days are Pauline Christians, it's just that different denominations interpret the texts differently. Archola 03:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC) ::::And there's the other thing, how do we treat liberal christians, that is to say, people who claim to be christians yet will simply ignore or groosly bend scripture out to shape to justify their own wants and needs? For instance, lets say I wanted the Bible not to condemn adultery. First, let's split "adultery" into "adult ery", then twist in a rhymed word, "adult erie" and put it back in and add some context just because, now i've got, "Thou shalt not commit the act of being an adult at lake erie". It's that kind of stuff that "different interpretations" covers, and things that ridiculous are very real, there's some group out there (I think it's Mormonism) that has twisted "atonement" in a similar fashion to how I just pretended to twist "adultery", rather than "atonement" they claim it is actually "at one ment", not because they have any real evidence for this in particular, but because they pretty much merely feel it is right, and therefore believe that rather than repent, all verses about atonement simply mean to be with God. According to the Bible, all those who do not repent will perish. This is serious stuff which can't be left up to "let's let other groups interpret scripture however they want and assume everyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian", you see what I mean? Homestarmy 03:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC) Interesting point. I guess we could say that liberal Christians say x, y, z, but conservative christians say a,b,c instead. Or, you could ask our benevolent dicator Nsandwich. Just as long as we don't excommunicate each other ;) Archola 03:38, 27 March 2006 (UTC) :But that's just it, by "liberal" I mean extremely flexible to the point of they will believe whatever they wish to believe no matter what the Bible actually says. There isn't really a "liberal church of Christ", it's just a large range of people who can really be anywhere and believe anything. And it doesn't have to be obvious either, like people who think Genesis is just a "fairy tale" or an "open ended metaphor", but speaking of Genesis, that might make for a good second issue to discuss, but not yet. Going back on track, if you have a person who claims to be a Christian and doesn't think Jesus is God, how do you propose they will be born again if they are not believing in Jesus, but rather, a different Jesus? Homestarmy 03:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC) ::I suppose we could always nail some theses to their doors ;) Seriously, though, I don't have an answer. Archola 03:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC) What I would suggest is the concept that the difference between Christian religious choices and non-Christian religious choices (even those that deal with Christ such as Islam, etc.) lies in the method of salvation: One way or the other, all Christian denominations state that the only way to be saved is through Christ. Whether that's before or after baptism, with or without communion, tongues, no tongues, tribulation and rapture, none of the above, whatever, all Christians are saved through Christ. So, the primary point in our CPOV is that "Salvation is only attained through Jesus Christ." If an individual, group, or denomination disagrees with that, well, they're essentially going against 2000 years of Christian history and probably do not deserve to receive positive credence here. --Avery W. Krouse 04:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC) :For this particular proposel, (I figure we'll probably have to go through many of them) I just thought i'd stick with the what I thought was simple notion that Jesus is God, since that is the only way He could provide salvation. But basically yea, that's pretty much the idea of a CPOV. The thing is though that gets into another issue, the word choice of "only" there gets into work-based salvation and possibly certain areas of Catholicism, and well, I just thought i'd start with a simple enough proposel to agree on heh. Homestarmy 04:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC) ::That is a good starting point. I am going to add that to the page as well as the CPOV. We can build on that. I still think we may eventually have to address my earlier proposal that we arbitrarily establish "major" denominations. Perhaps the largest 3 or 5 denominations, or even just Catholicism/Orthodoxy/Protestantism. Perhaps as a rule, articles would follow this format for sections: ::"Introduction"/etc. (stuff that is common to all 3 or 5) ::"Catholic Interpretations" (as needed) ::"Protestant Interpretations" (as needed) ::"Orthodox Interpretations" (as needed) ::"Other Interpretations" (as needed) ::This latter section would contain links to subarticles for an unlimited number of Christian denominations and their particular views, if they happen to differ. Keep in mind most articles will not have these sections at all. Christians don't disagree on every single point, hehe. When I say Christians, I am going with Avery's definition above. "all Christian denominations state that the only way to be saved is through Christ." That's my proposal. Thoughts/suggestions? ::-- nsandwich 05:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC) :::Just an addition. This is worth looking at by everyone involved in this debate: Christian denominations by # of members as well as List of Christian Denominations. Benevolent Dictatorship Hi folks. I know this is off-topic but I wanted to be very clear on something. I am not the dictator of this site, benevolent or otherwise. This is a community effort. Everything I say should be subject to interpretation, suggestion, and contribution. Nothing I say should be taken as "the final word" on any matter. I may be the founder, but I am neither the sole administrator nor sole contributor, and I don't feel like I should have any special status. Just wanted to be clear on that ;) -- nsandwich 05:04, 27 March 2006 (UTC) :It was just by analogy with Wikipedia's Jimbo. I didn't mean anything else by it. :Perhaps "Benevolant Bureaucrat" would be better? I've been told that's your access level, and you seem benevolant to me. Archola 05:08, 27 March 2006 (UTC) ::No offence taken. Benevolent Bureaucrat... hehe I'll go with it! :) -- nsandwich :::I didn't mean to imply that you should make your opinion the final word here, I was just saying that technically, it is (even if the last word is that your word is not the last word!). You seem to be a good Benevolent Bureaucrat, and your name makes me hungry! --MonkeeSage 05:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC) ::::Monkeys make me hungry. -- nsandwich A reciprocal definition? Okay, this is just a thought, but how about we only include in the definition of Christianity those who, by their own definition, do not exclude us. In other words, a reciprocal definition. For example, Mormons think that everyone else is apostate, Jehovah's Witness believe similarly. So we exclude them from the definition of Christian, because in the nature of the case they exclude us, no matter what definition we use. I'm not saying that we should do this out of a vindictive spirit, like "you won't include me, well I'll show you! We exclude you too!! So there!" I'm just thinking that this might be a more objective/defensible criteria than what may be perceived as a more subjective criteria (like the Deity of Christ). The exclusion is mutual on this scheme, so if a LDS or whatever says "hey, you can't say I'm not a Christian" we can say "Well, by your definition of Christian, we are not Christians, but we consider ourselves Christians, which means that you have excluded yourselves from our definition." Again, this is just a thought. Now have at it! ;) --MonkeeSage 05:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC) :See also User:Inkybutton. He's a JW. Also, btw, Storm Rider on Wikipedia is a Mormon, and he doesn't mind saying that the rest of us are Christians. I'm not sure if your point is valid. :For that matter, the Roman Catholic Church once excluded the Eastern Orthodox...not to mention us Protestants! Archola 05:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)